tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5970683153008645393.post8824051042805065411..comments2024-01-09T16:17:22.327-06:00Comments on Bring the Books: Sinclair Ferguson's Case for CessationismAdam Parkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05826908205996140341noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5970683153008645393.post-76115003443210009932015-10-20T10:57:48.155-05:002015-10-20T10:57:48.155-05:00is this book still available and free? Kindle Book...is this book still available and free? Kindle Book: The Infallibility of the Church by George SalmonAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375544033596626990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5970683153008645393.post-65216410759470555742013-11-07T08:15:17.295-06:002013-11-07T08:15:17.295-06:00cool thanks - listening to the audio right nowcool thanks - listening to the audio right nowAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13513417353771877023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5970683153008645393.post-16393759515507171132013-11-07T07:12:47.751-06:002013-11-07T07:12:47.751-06:00Gaffin also has a book called "Perspectives o...Gaffin also has a book called "Perspectives on Pentecost." It's a short but more challenging read that deals with his overall approach to the book of Acts. But the Four Views: Are The Miraculous Gifts For Today? book is the one where he speaks most directly to the issues. He also did a debate a few years ago with Wayne Grudem, who probably defends more of the view that you're used to hearing. <br /><br />You can find the audio of their discussion here: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=8210911598<br /><br />You can find the Four Views book here (only $5.98 on the Kindle): http://www.amazon.com/Miraculous-Gifts-Today-Counterpoints-ebook/dp/B004VSDF2W/?_encoding=UTF8&tag=britheboo0f-20Adam Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05826908205996140341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5970683153008645393.post-55247135152525552792013-11-06T10:46:24.454-06:002013-11-06T10:46:24.454-06:00your top paragraph does make sense
i am chewing ...your top paragraph does make sense <br /><br />i am chewing on the 2nd paragraph - i am going to do some reading into what the "office of Apostle" is/means/does etc...<br /><br />and i will take a look into Richard Gaffin, thanks again for the discussionAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13513417353771877023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5970683153008645393.post-36968120241627848792013-11-06T10:32:59.612-06:002013-11-06T10:32:59.612-06:00I would call this healing. God uses means to heal,...I would call this healing. God uses means to heal, and sometimes he heals in the face of science, and sometimes he uses the doctor and science to accomplish healing. Sometimes he just does it when all hope is lost. But nobody exercised the gift of healing in that instance. I would just call it providential healing. However, I'd probably call it a miracle if the science just doesn't add up. Either way, I would thank God for bringing the healing. Does that make sense?<br /><br />The difference here is, no single individual is being vested with this gift, because nobody's credentials as an Apostle or Apostolic envoy (whatever you want to call the men the Apostles sent out) are being confirmed any longer.Adam Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05826908205996140341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5970683153008645393.post-691007170355855712013-11-06T10:24:31.887-06:002013-11-06T10:24:31.887-06:00Yes. I have a book on the different views called &...Yes. I have a book on the different views called "Are the Miraculous Gifts For Today?" The post actually refers to an article in there by Richard Gaffin, and I wholeheartedly agree with Gaffin's view. I'd actually recommend that book. It does a nice job of offering a substantive discussion with some nice back-and-forth.Adam Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05826908205996140341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5970683153008645393.post-2666813503037617762013-11-06T10:23:51.520-06:002013-11-06T10:23:51.520-06:00The miracles that occur today are healing miracles...The miracles that occur today are healing miracles brought about by laying on of hands and prayer, or someone’s life being saved because a dog walked in front of a car and kept the car from going into the intersection just as an armored truck sped through the intersection. Certainly, God caused that dog to be there. Certainly, God healed the person of the cancer overnight. But do these qualify as gifts of miracles. Couldn’t the healing also be attributed to what James talks about when he says, “If anyone is sick, call the elders and have them pray…” <br /><br />this is a quote from the link i gave in my last post - since you seem to have a steady handle on the cessationist i want to know if these healings of today are NOT miracles, what are they? what do you call them?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13513417353771877023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5970683153008645393.post-72595149895738512112013-11-06T10:03:18.060-06:002013-11-06T10:03:18.060-06:00https://bible.org/seriespage/are-miraculous-gifts-...https://bible.org/seriespage/are-miraculous-gifts-today<br /><br />The Vineyard Movement i think best describes my understanding of how the Holy Spirit works<br /><br />does this brief description of Cessationist portray your thoughts as well? i think this page is helpful for me understanding each viewAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13513417353771877023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5970683153008645393.post-62492242305615292452013-11-06T08:32:42.343-06:002013-11-06T08:32:42.343-06:00"God's work is to change hearts, convert ..."God's work is to change hearts, convert sinners, to take enemies and make them friends, to take dead hearts and breathe new life in them, to take a heart of stone and turn it into a tender heart of flesh, to take sinners who once hated God and create love within them instead." NOW THAT I CAN SOUNDLY AGREE WITH.<br /><br />also i agree that we can not live simply by experiences.<br />Maybe I have a wrong understanding of "Apostolic miraculous sign gifts" as i see all gifts as the same (from one Spirit) Are you meaning like Mark 16:17? getting bit and demons? -<br /><br />I too have had times where i felt there was some faking and others being pushed to "fake". Those times make me squirm and feel uncomfortable. <br /><br /> i really do appreciate the continued conversation despite my misunderstanding of some of what you talk about. i will read that other article that you linked and see if i can not grasp your view better. again thanks for taking the time to explain further - i did go to a Christian College for 4 yr and have a youth min degree but some of this stuff i feel is a bit over my head<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13513417353771877023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5970683153008645393.post-10972454481043986362013-11-05T19:41:12.419-06:002013-11-05T19:41:12.419-06:00I want to be clear on what I'm saying. I don&#...I want to be clear on what I'm saying. I don't deny that any of the NT gifts are for today. What I deny (and what Ferguson denies in his above argument) is that the miraculous sign gifts associated with the Apostles gradually passed out of use in the church because their purpose was finished.<br /><br />My statement that the gifts do not continue today is not based on experience. I have had experiences which cause me to believe very strongly that the gifts are faked and that people all the time are given leads and things to do with their tongues and mouths to make them start making the noises that are commonly (today) called "tongues." In either case it doesn't resemble the "other languages" that we see in Acts 2. But my point being, even though I could make an experience-based case against the Apostolic sign gifts as we see them practiced today, that is not my approach.<br /><br />Rather, I am "able to say that the gifts do not continue today" because 1) Sometimes in Scripture God gives special giftings for a season and then removes them. He has a right to do this, and it shouldn't be assumed that God will not do this. 2) As presented above by Ferguson, the Apostolic sign gifts had a purpose: namely to testify that the message of the Apostles and their fellow partners was true. 3) The Apostles are gone, along with the purpose of the Apostolic miraculous sign gifts. 4) If we don't believe that the Apostolic office still exists then we are all cessationists to some degree.<br /><br />So I can say that the gifts don't continue today, not because of experience, but because the testimony of the Apostles is complete, because the purpose of the signs was to testify to the Apostles, and because the Apostles are now dead and gone on to their reward, though their message remains. The purpose of the miraculous sign gifts is finished. That doesn't mean that there aren't miracles today, or that God cannot work with, against, or above means, however. Even hardcore Puritans like John Owen confessed that God can do these things even today.<br /><br />I also want you to know that I see God work all the time, but His work isn't flashy and attention-drawing. God's work is to change hearts, convert sinners, to take enemies and make them friends, to take dead hearts and breathe new life in them, to take a heart of stone and turn it into a tender heart of flesh, to take sinners who once hated God and create love within them instead. So God works all the time, and he does it in ways that are 1000 times more miraculous than a room full of people making noises they don't understand and losing their self-control.<br /><br />I know you have had experiences that you believe are from God, and I can't speak to that because I haven't had the experience, but if experience is our barometer of truth, then you have experience vs. experience. I've had experiences of faking and being told to fake spiritual gifts. I've written a post about that already here at Bring the Books (http://www.bringthebooks.org/2010/11/glossalalia-my-cautionary-tale-of.html). If I took that and put it up against your experience, I think we'd be at an impasse. Scripture, on the other hand, is true and sure, and it interprets itself. Nobody can ever top that, and so that is the basis upon which I say that the Apostolic miraculous sign gifts don't continue any longer.Adam Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05826908205996140341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5970683153008645393.post-63692280629474215682013-11-04T14:02:25.538-06:002013-11-04T14:02:25.538-06:00Thanks for writting this up-
I however ask;
as s...Thanks for writting this up- <br />I however ask;<br /> as someone who has actively been apart of the gifts (i have interpreted tongues, given words of knowledge {that spoke to things i knew nothing about but were deeply intimate to the hearer} and know many people who have given first hand accounts of seeing people healed in front of them and also having words of knowledge or interpretation etc) <br />how are you able to say that the gifts do not continue today? these wonders, signs, miracles, tongues are done in the name of Jesus by people who actively seek Jesus as Lord and Saviour<br />I do not think I could ever say the gifts were only for then- <br /><br />maybe I misunderstand what you believe, if that is the case i am sorry - but from what i read it sounds like you dont believe the gifts of the NT are in use today<br />I will pray that God would allow you a chance to see Him work today Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13513417353771877023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5970683153008645393.post-30006963083217802492013-10-30T12:57:20.781-05:002013-10-30T12:57:20.781-05:00Thanks Adam. Here's a great discussion between...Thanks Adam. Here's a great discussion between Ian Hamilton and Wayne Grudem: https://vimeo.com/37169587Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15693380017090778540noreply@blogger.com